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	<title>Comments on: Python is great, but why do python frameworks suck that much !?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.webalis.com/2008/05/python-is-great-but-why-do-python-frameworks-suck-that-much/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.webalis.com/2008/05/python-is-great-but-why-do-python-frameworks-suck-that-much/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 20:01:25 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Massimo</title>
		<link>http://www.webalis.com/2008/05/python-is-great-but-why-do-python-frameworks-suck-that-much/comment-page-1/#comment-268</link>
		<dc:creator>Massimo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 06:08:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webalis.com/?p=17#comment-268</guid>
		<description>I strongly encourage to look into web2py. The ORM maps one to one into SQL and yet write SQL dialects for you (this makes apps portable, including oracle and the google app engine). You can put anything you want in templates and embed any python code without indentation in {{ }} tags and you do not have the limitations imposed by TG (only &quot;valid&quot; XML) or Django (only &quot;Djangese&quot; in templates). Easy as pie!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I strongly encourage to look into web2py. The ORM maps one to one into SQL and yet write SQL dialects for you (this makes apps portable, including oracle and the google app engine). You can put anything you want in templates and embed any python code without indentation in {{ }} tags and you do not have the limitations imposed by TG (only &#8220;valid&#8221; XML) or Django (only &#8220;Djangese&#8221; in templates). Easy as pie!</p>
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		<title>By: Thierry</title>
		<link>http://www.webalis.com/2008/05/python-is-great-but-why-do-python-frameworks-suck-that-much/comment-page-1/#comment-266</link>
		<dc:creator>Thierry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 06:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webalis.com/?p=17#comment-266</guid>
		<description>@MV: maybe I am, well, not using the wrong tool, but at least looking at the wrong one.

But I had similar grip for every framework I ever have looked up, so I&#039;m asking myselfif it&#039;s not my way of working that is simply not adapted to a framework.

And by the way, it&#039;s not because my way of working don&#039;t fit in a framework that it makes it a basic level of programming.
Portability amongst DB is simply not something I want.
Limiting the templating by a reduced set of instruction (and possibilities) is not what I&#039;m looking for.
Creating another blog or wiki engine in python is not what I&#039;m looking for

I have a specific need, for a service who is already running in python, and as the performances of the front end to this service comes in question, a portage of this front-end to Python makes sense.

I don&#039;t want to reduce the functionnalites just to add an &quot;powered by python&quot; at the bottom of the page.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@MV: maybe I am, well, not using the wrong tool, but at least looking at the wrong one.</p>
<p>But I had similar grip for every framework I ever have looked up, so I&#8217;m asking myselfif it&#8217;s not my way of working that is simply not adapted to a framework.</p>
<p>And by the way, it&#8217;s not because my way of working don&#8217;t fit in a framework that it makes it a basic level of programming.<br />
Portability amongst DB is simply not something I want.<br />
Limiting the templating by a reduced set of instruction (and possibilities) is not what I&#8217;m looking for.<br />
Creating another blog or wiki engine in python is not what I&#8217;m looking for</p>
<p>I have a specific need, for a service who is already running in python, and as the performances of the front end to this service comes in question, a portage of this front-end to Python makes sense.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want to reduce the functionnalites just to add an &#8220;powered by python&#8221; at the bottom of the page.</p>
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		<title>By: MV</title>
		<link>http://www.webalis.com/2008/05/python-is-great-but-why-do-python-frameworks-suck-that-much/comment-page-1/#comment-265</link>
		<dc:creator>MV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 22:08:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webalis.com/?p=17#comment-265</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re using the wrong tools. You dont want and never wanted a framework. For your basic level of programming you just want mod_python

-- MV</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re using the wrong tools. You dont want and never wanted a framework. For your basic level of programming you just want mod_python</p>
<p>&#8211; MV</p>
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		<title>By: Thierry</title>
		<link>http://www.webalis.com/2008/05/python-is-great-but-why-do-python-frameworks-suck-that-much/comment-page-1/#comment-264</link>
		<dc:creator>Thierry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 21:32:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webalis.com/?p=17#comment-264</guid>
		<description>Thanks a lot for the links Eric. I&#039;m gonna check them tomorrow. 
I&#039;ve just quickly read the 4suite project examples page, and I really like it.

The next step I see coming is that I don&#039;t exactly know what is an wsgi compliant application, thus how to implement it.

Turbogears and django seems to handle that themselves, but now I&#039;m too sleepy to understand it.
I simply will do that tomorrow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks a lot for the links Eric. I&#8217;m gonna check them tomorrow.<br />
I&#8217;ve just quickly read the 4suite project examples page, and I really like it.</p>
<p>The next step I see coming is that I don&#8217;t exactly know what is an wsgi compliant application, thus how to implement it.</p>
<p>Turbogears and django seems to handle that themselves, but now I&#8217;m too sleepy to understand it.<br />
I simply will do that tomorrow.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Eric Larson</title>
		<link>http://www.webalis.com/2008/05/python-is-great-but-why-do-python-frameworks-suck-that-much/comment-page-1/#comment-263</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Larson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 21:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webalis.com/?p=17#comment-263</guid>
		<description>I need to change hosts... 

But assuming I get things back up and running, I have a mercurial repo with examples of using Amara at http://ionrock.org/hg/

Also, if you want to check out http://xml3k.org there is more information on Amara/4suite related projects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I need to change hosts&#8230; </p>
<p>But assuming I get things back up and running, I have a mercurial repo with examples of using Amara at <a href="http://ionrock.org/hg/" rel="nofollow">http://ionrock.org/hg/</a></p>
<p>Also, if you want to check out <a href="http://xml3k.org" rel="nofollow">http://xml3k.org</a> there is more information on Amara/4suite related projects.</p>
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		<title>By: Thierry</title>
		<link>http://www.webalis.com/2008/05/python-is-great-but-why-do-python-frameworks-suck-that-much/comment-page-1/#comment-262</link>
		<dc:creator>Thierry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 20:45:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webalis.com/?p=17#comment-262</guid>
		<description>@Eric: THANK YOU !!!!
It&#039;s almost a replica (well, more probably on the other way) of what my PHP xsl wrapper does.

Django looks great, but again, if I can use XML + XSL for the view part, I will be quite happy.

By the way, the link to your blog seems not to be working.
I&#039;ve got a blank page.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Eric: THANK YOU !!!!<br />
It&#8217;s almost a replica (well, more probably on the other way) of what my PHP xsl wrapper does.</p>
<p>Django looks great, but again, if I can use XML + XSL for the view part, I will be quite happy.</p>
<p>By the way, the link to your blog seems not to be working.<br />
I&#8217;ve got a blank page.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Thierry</title>
		<link>http://www.webalis.com/2008/05/python-is-great-but-why-do-python-frameworks-suck-that-much/comment-page-1/#comment-261</link>
		<dc:creator>Thierry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 20:07:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webalis.com/?p=17#comment-261</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s certainly far from perfect, but it do a good job on some toy project I had/have (but like many other, that I have not finished...)

I thought that it could maybe interest other peoples, and created that simple site.
But documentation is awful, I know.

Twitter me (I&#039;m following you now) if something seems not clear enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s certainly far from perfect, but it do a good job on some toy project I had/have (but like many other, that I have not finished&#8230;)</p>
<p>I thought that it could maybe interest other peoples, and created that simple site.<br />
But documentation is awful, I know.</p>
<p>Twitter me (I&#8217;m following you now) if something seems not clear enough.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Eric Larson</title>
		<link>http://www.webalis.com/2008/05/python-is-great-but-why-do-python-frameworks-suck-that-much/comment-page-1/#comment-260</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Larson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 20:07:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webalis.com/?p=17#comment-260</guid>
		<description>If you are interested in using XML and XSLT within WSGI I&#039;d take a close look at Amara. It makes working with XML a breeze. None of the frameworks support XML in a very intimate way, but using Amara, it makes it possible to get the best of both worlds. 

I&#039;ve written XSLTemplates, WSGI middleware for templating using XSLT (http://code.google.com/p/xsltemplates). It is going to be integrated into Amara/Akara in the long run, but for now, it is very usable and has been used on production sites. Feel free to contact me with any questions and good luck!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you are interested in using XML and XSLT within WSGI I&#8217;d take a close look at Amara. It makes working with XML a breeze. None of the frameworks support XML in a very intimate way, but using Amara, it makes it possible to get the best of both worlds. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve written XSLTemplates, WSGI middleware for templating using XSLT (<a href="http://code.google.com/p/xsltemplates" rel="nofollow">http://code.google.com/p/xsltemplates</a>). It is going to be integrated into Amara/Akara in the long run, but for now, it is very usable and has been used on production sites. Feel free to contact me with any questions and good luck!</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.webalis.com/2008/05/python-is-great-but-why-do-python-frameworks-suck-that-much/comment-page-1/#comment-259</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 18:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webalis.com/?p=17#comment-259</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the details. I&#039;m playing with Quixml right now. Liking the idea of client processed views.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the details. I&#8217;m playing with Quixml right now. Liking the idea of client processed views.</p>
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		<title>By: Thierry</title>
		<link>http://www.webalis.com/2008/05/python-is-great-but-why-do-python-frameworks-suck-that-much/comment-page-1/#comment-258</link>
		<dc:creator>Thierry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 17:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.webalis.com/?p=17#comment-258</guid>
		<description>@tim: I&#039;m browsing the documentation of web.py right now. Thanks for the hint.
As for the PHP+XSL, go to http://www.quixml.org .
I&#039;ve put this together when I was happy enough of the result.

This site itself is build itself with this wrapper, and if you use firefox and you ask to see the source, you will only see the XML.

The wrapper has just a little bit of pre-processing, that allows me to plug in &lt;include {xsl path}/&gt; to merge several style sheets into 1.

In simple, I define business logic in classes, and the &quot;public&quot; php pages are composed like that:
&lt;pre lang=&quot;php&quot;&gt;
&lt; ?php
$objXml-&gt;setRendering(&#039;html&#039;);
$objXml-&gt;setXsl(&#039;org.quixml.index&#039;);
$objXml-&gt;start();
   $objXml-&gt;general();
   $objXml-&gt;open(&#039;DATAS&#039;);
      $objXml-&gt;att(&#039;demo&#039;,&#039;true&#039;);
      $objXml-&gt;data(&#039;feeling&#039;,&#039;Happy&#039;);
   $objXml-&gt;close();
$objXml-&gt;close();
?&gt;
&lt;/pre&gt;
The xsl style sheets are served from an /xsl/{xsl path} url.
The setRendering() allows me to choose the media type. Standrd html, lo-fi, text, mini (iphone or pda)...
An infinite number of rendering set can be defined, and simply switched with this instruction.

The wrapper handle the client detection. Everything modern enough (Firefox/mozilla, ie 5.5+ and safari 1.3+) receive XML + XSL.
Everything else have the XML transformed locally on the server to be sent as simple HTML4.

Simple and effective...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@tim: I&#8217;m browsing the documentation of web.py right now. Thanks for the hint.<br />
As for the PHP+XSL, go to <a href="http://www.quixml.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.quixml.org</a> .<br />
I&#8217;ve put this together when I was happy enough of the result.</p>
<p>This site itself is build itself with this wrapper, and if you use firefox and you ask to see the source, you will only see the XML.</p>
<p>The wrapper has just a little bit of pre-processing, that allows me to plug in <include {xsl path}/> to merge several style sheets into 1.</p>
<p>In simple, I define business logic in classes, and the &#8220;public&#8221; php pages are composed like that:</p>
<pre lang="php">
< ?php
$objXml->setRendering('html');
$objXml->setXsl('org.quixml.index');
$objXml->start();
   $objXml->general();
   $objXml->open('DATAS');
      $objXml->att('demo','true');
      $objXml->data('feeling','Happy');
   $objXml->close();
$objXml->close();
?>
</pre>
<p>The xsl style sheets are served from an /xsl/{xsl path} url.<br />
The setRendering() allows me to choose the media type. Standrd html, lo-fi, text, mini (iphone or pda)&#8230;<br />
An infinite number of rendering set can be defined, and simply switched with this instruction.</p>
<p>The wrapper handle the client detection. Everything modern enough (Firefox/mozilla, ie 5.5+ and safari 1.3+) receive XML + XSL.<br />
Everything else have the XML transformed locally on the server to be sent as simple HTML4.</p>
<p>Simple and effective&#8230;</p>
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